Building Trust at Your Organisation, Inside and Out

Trust is the foundation of every great customer relationship, built on transparency, reliability, and authenticity. Yet in today’s landscape, trust in business is more fragile than ever. Join our webinar with Jeremy Schwartz to discover how you can nurture and rebuild trust: both within your organization and with your customers.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi everyone, I'm Nicholas Skintopoulos, Vice President of Marketing for Twilio in APJ. Last year I had the privilege of hosting Decoding AI series where we invited some really amazing speakers to explore the topic of AI and how it's shaping the business world. I talked with guests from a variety of industries, both B2C and B2B, including education and security as two areas. But we also talked about how AI is transforming entire functions, including marketing, contact centers, you know, customer experience in general. If you haven't seen the decoding AI series, I invite you to check out the past episodes in our webinar hub, which you should be able to find in the resource center down in the bottom uh right-hand corner, if I remember correctly. So, as a continuation of the decoding AI series, a new series is born. I welcome you to Decoding Trust. I'm actually really excited about this first uh segment in this new series. And we're going to talk about why trust is important and why now. And what does trust have to do with customer experience? And how can we as business leaders or change makers uh play a role in building trust within our organization? But trust isn't always straightforward. It's it's it's not always defined the same way. Furthermore, businesses aren't necessarily measuring it in the same way. That makes it a complex uh topic worthy of decoding. Um, so I hope you'll enjoy uh the lineup of speakers and content we have planned for you in this series. But before I introduce today's guests, I I want to I want to bring you into this series. Uh uh we're gonna make this a little bit more interactive. We're gonna actually make you work um through the series, not too hard. Don't worry, don't stress out, don't leave us just yet. Um we're gonna share some some questions with you, which we'd love you to interact with. Um, you know, so the first question is what do you think is the biggest challenge businesses face in building trust with their customers? And we've got some simple choices here, delivering on the promises uh consistently, that's an important one. Protecting customer data and privacy, being transparent and honest in communication, showing empathy and understanding of customer needs. Or other, if you have something else that you think we need to consider, feel free to add that into the chat. And also, we have got a chat uh QA section, so feel free to post questions there as you go forward. So let me know what you think is most important here. I'll give it a second here while people's uh responses load up. And uh what we'll do is we'll just quickly see what folks are thinking about here uh in terms of being a priority for them. Wow, okay. It looks like we're seeing uh delivering on promises consistently is coming up as a top choice here. It's sitting around 44% of those that have voted. Um, the next one being being transparent and honest in communications also um uh being important. But yeah, delivering on promises consistently, I love that. I love the symmetry between me and my audience here, because I definitely agree with you. I think that's an important area uh of focus. So today we're gonna talk about how businesses can build trust, how how as individuals we can do that as well. Um, and ultimately trust is built through people. We really need to think about our the people we're interacting with, but also it's built through the processes and technologies we deploy. So we're gonna explore that. Um, and like I said, we've got a fantastic thinker, uh, a real uh uh someone who's got great pedigree in this space. Jeremy um is joining us. He's the uh former uh CEO for two major um brands in particular that I I love, um, my wife loves, I should say, Pandora and the Body Shop. Jeremy, really want to welcome you to joining us today. And is there anything else you could share about your background that with the audience today, uh, aside from these two iconic brands, what else are you up to today?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Well, right now I have two main focuses. The first is actually as a speaker to uh executive leadership teams and consulting, and I do a lot in Asia. I've been uh doing a lot in Thailand, in Taiwan, in the Philippines, but my goal there is to cascade my experience to what I could call the next generation, you know. So I want to give back to the next generation of leaders and managers, you know, that my perspectives and my experience so that they can hear a different voice from perhaps their own company or their end industry, but be inspired by my thoughts and my experiences to them. So I guess that's uh my emphasis at the moment, uh you know, and then consulting companies through that as well. But uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

I love how you frame that paying it forward. And and again, in my in the stage of my career, is something I'm also enjoying is passing on knowledge. And I think you've you've got a huge uh wealth of knowledge that I'm looking forward to us uh having you share some nuggets uh on. And we're here to talk about trust. And I thought, Jeremy, it would be good for us to maybe define what trust is using maybe you know Britannica's definition here. Right. And Britannica defines trust as the belief that someone or something is reliable, good, honest, and effective. So I think that's not a bad baseline uh starting point for us to work with. Um, and ultimately, like I said, today the goal here is just to explore why trust matters so much uh in today's environment. Um, so maybe my first question to kickstart things, Jeremy, is now we have defined our understanding understanding of trust. Can you share why you think that trust is such a critical factor in customer relationship and customer experience, particularly in today's environment?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah. Um, I think in today's environment, particularly, because is that we have created uh what I would call uh an atomized customer or atomize us. And what I mean by that is uh basically the iPhone and technology has empowered us all, as we know, to be more individualistic, more empowered as individuals than ever before. And as a result, we're willing to take our, I think, our custom anywhere at a whim. And the at a whim is the important thing. So, you know, even banking, we used to say, well, people don't change their bank for 20 years, you know. Now with the disruptor banks, we've all learned that we can move very quickly, and there's a real benefit of it. So I think it's this at a whim that we should realize is why trust is important to create. Uh, because people are the word loyalty, I even would challenge the word loyalty, and I've got facts to support that. I think it's a it can be a dangerous word. We can kid ourselves that we have loyalty because people like what we're doing, but it can be out of convenience, and that's not out of trust or or out of obligation, that's just out of convenience. And uh yeah, we'll talk about that, I think.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Actually, I love that. Maybe expand on that a little bit more because yeah, I think uh loyalty um can be uh misunderstood significantly because maybe there isn't a viable alternative, right? Or a competitor is actually offering a better service. Maybe but maybe the industry as a whole is notoriously not great at delivering service, but that's where it's open for disruption, right? Uh Jeremy?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

I think what I've experienced from a particular incident that I had earlier in my well, my mid mid-career was that the loyalty that we thought we were measuring and proud of and chuffed about and patting ourselves on the back was an overestimation and a false measure. Not completely, but let's just put it on the table that 50% of the loyalty that we might see might simply be because uh using the words because of availability or convenience or inertia as opposed to truly uh really advocating for that business or brand because it's better than. And therefore, it doesn't take much to disrupt somebody. In the past it took more, now it takes very little, and uh you can lose people very, very quickly. Um, if you do something, well, we can talk about examples that that mean people question actually why are they giving you their custom.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, I I I I love that. I mean, basically, don't mistake inertia for loyalty. Uh uh and uh be be mindful of just how easy it is becoming in a lot of industries for disruption, both within your current market, but also from external um competitors coming into new entrants into your market, right? So maybe on that, uh, how can leaders ensure their organizations build and main trust, maintain trust with their customers? I mean, have you got any thoughts on that one? Yeah, no, no, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Um, you know, I think the first thing is everything is led by example. So, you know, if the leader uh believes in this, uh actually believes in that the customer, I mean, this is gonna sound a bit cliche, but I believe this fundamentally. If the leader absolutely puts the customer as the first priority of a business before profit, the profit is the outcome of customer, let's call it happiness. Um, you know, that you will people will see that and they will hopefully, through processes you might set up, and we can talk about those, will make judgment calls to put the customer first. Now, you know, we the wear with everything I'm gonna say, I do feel that there is uh an opposite to be uh as an example. You know, for example, I'm gonna give you an example. People say leadership nowadays is all being very kind to the employee, and you know, that's true, but at the same time, we can get some dictators and show that dictators are also very successful. So, you know, this isn't an either or, this is a statement. So I think, you know, one of them is that I think the other thing is the and we're going to talk about this, the empowerment of teams to make judgment calls at the interface with customers when there's an issue. And I think that's where if I both look at myself but also look at customers, you know, where the rubber hits the road is probably not the everyday experience. It's when something isn't quite working. And probably a good example is when airlines, you know, uh are late or or or there's a big issue with airlines, and suddenly you see how does the airline react in that moment, and therefore it's the empowerment of teams to make the right judgment to address individuals, I think is uh is a good example of where we can see how leaders are able to build a trust environment for customers. I I just want to say one thing throughout all this, too. I have unfortunately also seen that we can't customers also need to demonstrate they are trustworthy. You know, we are seeing in banks and much in, and I've experienced it, a lot of fraud and fraudsters and tricksters. So I also don't want to paint that they the customer's always right and always good and always virtuous. And unfortunately, the reason that you know we get more cynical and more restrictive is we see a lot of fraudsters and tricksters, and that unfortunately creates a bad behavior in organizations as they seek to protect themselves. So let's just put that as also another little caveat in this story.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, no, I love a couple of the points you made there, in particular, pushing a lot more of the I mean, the word empowerment's used quite heavily by a lot of leaders, but genuine empowerment means being willing to push more of the decision making to the edge of the organization and enabling those that are interfacing with their customers to have more for us to have more trust in their ability to help solve and ultimately rectify challenges or issues that customer might be facing. And again, I think that maybe if we explore that a little bit more, because obviously to do that, you obviously okay, I can say I trust you now as an employee to make a decision, but we have to also think about how do we arm those employees with the ability to deliver. Um, uh, so that's where I think the people, process, and technology element comes in. I mean, have you got any insights there on how you can build trust internally with your business?

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, I just want to answer that little thing first. If I just want to see that is um uh of course you could we're I'm not advocating chaos, and nor am I advocating a complete profit loss. No, but you know, it is there's this line to be taken between right, we've got a rule and a process, and it's very black and white, and thou shalt do it to the extreme because that's the way we have control and we can make sure things go with a with a flexing around a parameter or a tra a tram line that allows a discretion of the uh the frontline staff, let's say, if if with that's how we're articulating it, to to to react to a customer problem because I think that's where trust really can either be made or broken in a special way. Um so that's what I'm talking about. So it's not chaos, it's not complete empowerment, but it's being smart to give that discretion to win a customer back and not be dogmatic. I mean, I'll give you an example that I'm really annoyed with. I'm gonna probably give a couple of airline examples just because we can everybody can relate to it. But you know, let's say with the low-cost airline, you know, they'll have a policy around the size of the bag that will go in. Now, some of those airlines, um, you know, they've lost my custom because some dogmatic uh frontline staff has said we've been told that the the bag must fit into this unit exactly, and if you don't, you're gonna be charged uh you know $75. Well, to give uh discretion as to what that looks like, because the idea is to keep your custom and not alienate them, you know, is an example of that flexing but within parameters.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yes. And then but that's also it's a great example because then you can build I think keeping it beyond a map that sort of experience you're having with a customer if they become a repeat uh offender, maybe with yeah, you know, trying to get too much uh luggage in, you know, arming the employee with the insights based on that individual's sort of persona or you know, unified profile would then enable them to make that judgment core more effectively, right? So I agree. I think this is an important area for sure. I mean, let's also think about what can leaders do specifically though to make sure trust or um is is in is becomes a core part of the culture. I mean, is there any tips there or any insights you can share in that respect?

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, look what I think the first thing is that leaders need to be seen to be consistent with their what they say and what they do. You know, it's a lot there's a lot of ability to talk. Leaders do a lot of talking and they make lots of statements. And the question is, uh particularly when things get tough or when moments tough. And I'm gonna give a bit of an actually an extreme example. Um it's actually when you have an underperformer. So here's what I've learned. Number one, actually, teams can see that if leaders don't address an underperformer, actually they can get angry with the uh and lose trust in the leaders to be able to um ensure that the people who were working hard are being treated the same as somebody who's underperforming. And in fact, by exiting somebody who's an underperformer, actually the teams can trust the leader that they spotted and that they are treating uh people, let's let's say properly. Now, at the same time, I also think that the to have I mean, this is quite a strange example you might think, but it's you know sometimes at the edges where people really make decisions about leadership and about trust and about the way people are treated. But I also feel that the way that we exit somebody needs to be done with great integrity. In fact, I call it having an exit strategy because people watch how in the end you treat somebody when they are leaving or being exited, and if it's done with dignity and integrity, I think that can build uh I mean my experience, trust that uh that the way you're being treated every day isn't a falsehood, and actually, when the rubber hits the road, you're just gonna be exited, for example. So I think that's at the extreme one one example. No, but I think the law, if you want.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

I mean, if there's like yeah, I I I I love that. I think in terms of how you manage the team sort of formats and how individuals all are, you know, the this consistency in terms of the way the team is managed and set up and ultimately um the problem because we basically we think about trust, trust is anchored against this notion of promises. Yeah, promises we make and promises we keep. The more promises we keep, the the the more trust we build within the business. So if um um I think that's an important point. I mean, it what's another good example there that you might have. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

But I think uh another one is um is actually again, it's it's more again about the way we're treating our employees. Yeah, one is to listen to them openly uh and actively and by and at all levels and you know, little uh actions. So, for example, being able to listen to a frontline employee, I hear very deeply a frustration that they have in the business, in the process, in the way decision might be making that's impacting a lot of frontline stuff, and and then addressing it aggressively and um improving, which demonstrates that you are um responsive to the needs of employees and you are again not just focused on profit or focused on the high order thing um problems, but are really concerned with the the work and the and the experience of frontline teams. So let me give you an example. Um, you know, we can quite often find that uh yeah, actually, here's one. When I was at the body shop, now I know I'm a retailer, so that's not necessarily your environment, but let's say customer service teams might have it. You know, I discovered that as an executive and my executive teams all had extremely effective data books telling us on the performance of the business, but the frontline staff literally were using random bits of paper or very ineffective data forms, and it was like, hang, we've got 10,000 frontline staff that have very poor IT or support systems, and the top executives have fantastic IT. This should be reversed. You know, we actually need the frontline staff to have the data and the tools to perform excellently, and if that means I sacrifice at the top, well, that'd be fine, and therefore it's reversing the effort to make sure that uh the mass or the volume of teams have the excellent tools that they need and uh aren't left behind. So, again, that just shows caring, it shows attention to detail, it shows understanding, it shows interest, and it shows putting the effort where the large numbers of people are to make their jobs much more productive.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

No, I love I love where you're going there. Actually, um, there was a question uh which you beautifully answered there that I was gonna say. What steps have you taken as a leader to create consistent and reliable processes that build trust at organizations? And I think that was a really great example of, you know, yes, the execs had all the tools, but ultimately the folks that are actually doing the day-to-day work and interfacing weren't armed there. So this is where I think process design is really important, right? Part of being able to deliver consistently. And as you said earlier, removes well thought-out processes, will remove any sort of chaos creeping into the business, right? Um, so yeah, maybe maybe talk about um, let's explore this idea of trust being tested during challenging times, you know, when it comes to say delays or errors. What are some of the process-driven uh approaches that you've used to ensure customers feel supported and employees, I might add, even when there is uncertainty there? Because I think this is another important area where trust is built and maintained and ultimately increased when things go wrong, right? So have you got any sort of examples there that you could share?

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yes, I mean I think uh you know when we have a you know the the bottom line is when we have a customer complaint, we either have to have the view that you know we're going to solve that incredibly quickly and that the the customer can be right. It's using that old expression that you know the customer's not always right, but can be right, and that we see the speed with which we resolve that and the gesture which we do can build an equity in the customer that will pay back. So, again, when you are um you know in a business with uh either selling uh insurance or you're selling products and there is a problem, it is the processes you set in place to resolve that, and that you are not trying to catch or trick the customer out. And I'm thinking about when people bring back something with a complete, there's a damage or there is a problem with it, the speed and the way you have a gesture to say, right, we're just gonna replace that straight away without query, or we're going to uh replace it incredibly quickly. What what I want to give it is an that's it all sounds a bit vague. So I want to try and give what I think's happening a lot now, which is that customers discover that when they have a problem, basically they are being crushed by the organization. And or that the organization will do anything it can to avoid recompense or uh correcting. And you know, again, we can think about airlines and tickets, we can think about a product that's faulty, we can think about an insurance claim where when you then make the claim there are all sorts of criteria that all trying to catch you out. And I've got a feeling that there's a real temptation of organizations to minimize the cost incurred by finding any solution to not recover or repay or to solve the problem. And that may definitely feel like a good short term solution, but I think in the long term or even quickly, you're losing lots of equity. So being able to have a policy of return quickly, you know, take People on good value that they're doing it with good intent, um, I have found has been very effective in the organization. But it's a choice. It's a choice of how you want to treat a customer in a problem issue. Do you want to squash them, minimize the cost, or do you want to solve it and create goodwill?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think um, I mean, often when we think customer experience, we're always heavily focused on the the sexy end of uh customer experience, whether it's the you know the retail experience as you walk into the store or the digital experience that you're giving. But ultimately, that experience, as I sort of alluded to earlier, is uh anchored against the trust you build with a customer. And that that trust, the best time to build trust is when things don't do go wrong, right? I think that and really understanding how you can drive improvements in optimizing in that area, I think is an area well worth in spending time because I again I guess maybe maybe my follow-up question there is because obviously if I'm gonna spend effort and time in improving that, what I also want to be able to do is measure um trust. Now that's a tough one, right? This is a I'd love to get your views on it. How should companies measure trust? Because if I'm making these investments and optimizing and improving, especially a particular part of the journey, which can be difficult, you know, with it comes to a return list, for example. Yeah, I don't want what's your advice or how do you work with brands and businesses in helping them best assess the way to measure trust?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Um and I just uh I'm gonna answer that question, but I do if you're happy, I just want to pick on one thing because um oh yeah, of course. That yeah, because I I focused on the when you have the issue. Uh I just wouldn't like to flick it around to also talk about how do you build trust on an everyday basis on a let's say digital platform, etc. Yes, yes, and the reason I want to talk about this is because I feel that um you know the Amazon is you know the world's largest e-com business. And I don't feel we sometimes spend enough time to really reflect what we can steal with pride from Amazon. You know, why is it so effective? What does it do? And and I want to share what I feel is one of the things. Yes. And what I feel is that if you go down a single landing product page on Amazon, you you will scroll down and you'll see first of all the product, you'll see a very good description, you'll see videos, but then you'll see reviews, which we all know, and that's been around, though they pursued that. Then you'll see questions the customer asked, then you'll see products you may like, then you'll see comparisons. And for me, the question is why is all this stuff being done by Amazon and not by other companies? And I this is how I express it, which is that Amazon, and when you hear Jeff Bezos talk, you know, I think you can really hear it in what he says. They are interested in the weirdness of the human condition. I'm gonna take a breath there so you really understand the words I've chosen there. So I think we could probably acknowledge that everybody on this call, we are all pretty weird. Yeah. Again, I'm doing it on purpose to make this point. You know, basically, we're all incredibly individual. And actually, we have some strange individual whims or desires or questions or things that are in our mind. And, you know, those businesses which really acknowledge this breadth of weirdness, this breadth of questions, this breadth of differences, and and really think about wow, there's a lot of different people. We're not just some uniform mass called the customer. We're a bunch of individuals, and the majority are in the middle, and we are the same, but that's extremes, there's some pretty weird stuff, and we're gonna accommodate that, and we're gonna show we accommodate it by by having some twists and information and different angles of information. I think that in our positive light, as opposed to complaint, is an incredible way to build trust because it shows we are understanding about the thoughts that are in the customer's mind and that we're not just one uniform block. So, yeah, I just want to give you that.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

No, I I love this, Jeremy. I knew we were gonna geek out on this topic and have a lot of symmetry in that respect. I love the reference to the weirdness, uh, you know, because we all have unique DNA, obviously, right? And I think that carries through in terms of how we interact with brands. You know, I've if I just compare how my wife and I uh shot, we're completely different, right? She's very digitally first. She I prefer going in and physically touching something and then maybe ordering it online. So there is very uniqueness and also how like how we tailor that experience. I think this notion of personalization at scale has been around for some has been has been evolving for some time. It's an area that we've been focusing on as a business, but I think we're moving beyond personalization at scale to really individualizing at scale. And I think that's where your example with Amazon's really good example, they've actually gone down another layer into really individualizing and catering to that weirdness that you sort of um so beautifully uh framed there. So is that is that a fair uh statement?

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, totally, totally and I'm gonna answer your question, your your court, the question you actually asked me, but I think it's worth just spending a moment on this because um that individualization and demonstration of understanding leads to trust, because you get this sense that they have gone that extra mile to understand who I am and the problem that I have right now that I'm trying to solve. And if that sense is you're you really understood where I am better than anybody else, and you've got a solution, you start to get this sense of you you develop this trust because you're helping me make solution, you're helping me solve problems with less effort. And yeah, the reason we trust the brand is essentially because we don't want to think. Okay, I'm gonna make some of these statements and then I'm gonna stop just so it sits. So, my my understanding of you know, brands, and and I spent a lot of time thinking about this, is that essentially we are bombarded with uh decisions to make. And what a brand gives us is the ability to make a decision without thinking because we can trust that that is the solution. And we don't have to decide is it this thing or this thing or this thing because the trust is there, because it's a brand, and therefore we don't have to think. So the more thinking we can remove for people in decision making, the more that they will use trust to make that, and therefore they will stay it all or use us because they don't have to overthink is this the right thing or not. I trust you, I you know, I can rely on you, and therefore I'm just gonna use you.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

No, I love this. Um, so in order to uh tap into people's unique DNA, their weirdness, we need to really think through how do we personalize or individualize that experience to uh to engage them in a more meaningful way that reduces their need to have to think unnecessarily, because there is actually an energy consumption required in order to think, right? You actually it requires effort. So if we're helping remove unnecessary effort through that better personalization/slash individualization of the experience, what you're saying is we're gonna actually help build trust ultimately with those customers. So that's where, again, that sort of intersection between people, process, and ultimately technology, which we'll come to in a minute, um, becomes increasingly important. So when we think about trust, it's not just about hiring really trustworthy people or creating a culture of trust, it's how then we enable those people to serve those customers in a way that, like you said, caters to those uniqueness, uh their uniqueness in a really individualized way. So that's a key message there. I love it. I love where we're going. Maybe I'm gonna bring the audience back into the next poll now. Um basically we're gonna ask another question to the audience. So hopefully the audience is ready to get spring into action. I've got one last question. I think it's the last question, maybe one more after this. Uh, which aspect of trust do you think has the most significant impact on customer loyalty? So, which aspect of trust do you think has the most significant impact on customer loyalty? Now, the choices are transparency and honesty, personalized and empathetic experiences, secure handling of personal needer, reliability in delivering products or services, or other. If there's another um suggestion there, feel free to put that into the comments. So I'd love to hear what you guys have to say. I know what my uh sort of thoughts are on that one. Let's see what starts coming in from the poll's perspective. People are still entering their answers here, so we'll give it a second whilst it's refreshing. Um, but you know, again, I think we've touched on a couple of these already in terms of these choices. Obviously, personalization and empathetic experiences are really important. Um, what are we seeing here? Okay, great. So, actually, funny enough, the one I just read out is is is come out of the gates pretty strong, 41% there. Securing handling of data, actually, reliability in delivering products or services, also. So there's actually a clustering around those two um and being sort of uh second and third. So, number one definitely uh is personalized and empathetic uh experiences, Jeremy. So that's interesting. I think that uh matches with what we were just talking to. But closely behind that is reliability of delivering products or services. I think that's obviously important. You know, does the product do what it says on the tin, you know, um, as promised. Um and uh then securing handling of data is the next one after that. So that that's also becoming more important. So maybe um that's a good segue to the next uh area that I'd like to discuss uh with you is looking at um uh, you know, let's look at it from a technology perspective. We've talked about people, we've talked about process. You gave some really good examples already um here, but if there's any others that you you've got, we'll we'll look to unlock here. So let's talk about technology. In in our research, um, and this is research Twilio has conducted, um, we see data protection come up frequently. And according to our uh last uh customer state of customer engagement report 24, um six in 10 consumers say protecting their data is top is a top way to build their trust. And I yeah, I think that makes sense. I'm a consumer, you're a consumer. I think we we've become a lot more savvy as consumers in terms of the understanding of the value of our data, um, and also the the the need for that uh data to be protected. Um, I think that's uh becoming ever ever more important. So, how have you leveraged technology to increase transparency and build trust throughout your career, Jeremy? Have you got any insights you can share there?

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah, um actually well what I could do. Um can I break because what you spoke about is this data thrust and the data. And actually, do you mind if we if I really focus on that? Um yeah, 100%. I'd love to do that. Yeah, because the question I think we can be now asking is number one, okay, uh, how do we reassure a customer that we're looking after their data when you know we are all trying our best to have data security, but then we have a cyber attack and we didn't know we were gonna have a cyber attack because we've assumed that we are doing our best to protect ourselves. So you know, I think what one one's one question is okay, how internally do we as leaders um ensure that we're not complacent about the data security? And that's not because we are complacent, it's because we don't potentially test and really have a an emergency situation, and this is therefore asking you, which is first of all to really create a rigorous risk assessment register, which all companies have to do, but one is at thinking about the risk, then is simulating it. And I think something that we struggle to do is to diarise the simulation of an attack and to see are we as prepared as we thought we were? And sometimes, you know, I have found, and I'm sure you haven't got this, but um we didn't even have the mobile number of a critical person who happened to be off that day or working from home, and so it was literally down to that being the problem. So I think one question is how are we internally having the processes to really torture test our own integrity of data and uh and our protection from cyber attack? But the the bit I then want to see with you and discuss with you is how do we reassure customers that the claims we make that we're looking after their data are true? And I want to give you an example like one I've got at the moment, which is I have been very cynical of us doing DNA tests and that what then happens to our DNA. And there's um there's a brand called 23andMe that I'm sure you might have heard of, which at the outset I was pretty cynical about what happens to the data, and as we know, they've had a data, a cyber attack, and huge amounts of data has been lost, and now they're going into receivership as a company. And uh, you know, the question I think now is what levels of reassurance can we post or communicate in a fresh new way that does give that reassurance? What's the next level of information rather than just saying we're looking after your data? Thank you very much. Trust us. Um, what can we now communicate to really give that reassurance that data is not being sold, is not being transferred? And just saying we don't do that, I don't think is enough anymore. The trust has been lost. The companies are protecting and are doing what they say.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

So I'm actually sort of going to throw that into the mix to see where we're I love I love um so I want to come to that point. I'm gonna go back to something you said earlier, which I think is absolutely critical. Um, because again, uh one of the biggest challenges I see with a lot of customers I've worked with over my career, both customers I've worked with or brands I've worked for, because it's both uh as an employee uh uh as well as someone who's worked with brands, um, is the siloed nature of our organizations. I think this is where I think we have a fundamental challenge. And what you just spoke about uh when it comes to data protection, et cetera, this is not something that's owned by one person. It's there's a it's a shared ownership within the organization, right? And I think what's your view on that? Do you do you agree? Do you see that as being one of the biggest challenges is the siloed nature of businesses and the need for those business units to start working more horizontally together? Is that is that a fair thing?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Look, I mean, you know, as I was thinking about this this uh this conversation, actually, funnily enough, it was a number one topic for me. Uh, because every company I consult with, every company I speak to, if I say, is silo mentality and the silo environment the thing that really frustrates you about your job, I can promise you that this is probably the number one frustration of all employees. And it's this weird thing. The question is, why do silos occur? And just to take a step on that, you know, I see that the human condition is we have a group of people who will all work together, we then say, by the way, you report to that guy, and suddenly the whole emphasis is into a vertical accountability, not a horizontal. And where I see this is a major problem is what I call the interfaces between functions. So, and the worst ones can be the interface between a digital team and an enterprise IT team if they're kept separate because they're in a battle on who can own the interface that excites both groups. It's the same between marketing and let's say loyalty, you know, both of them want to be in charge of the CRM or the data and the interface, and therefore, how do we set a process and people such that we can really um erode this silo interface behavior? And I've got there are a bunch of tactics I know one can do at the extreme. Um, for example, in the IT enterprise, I've said, right, actually, we're gonna have one person in charge of enterprise and digital. Because in fact, I just cannot get these two people who are driven by different things to collaborate with honesty and openness. And actually, I'm just gonna have one person because then you just get one group. But there are other ways we can discuss.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Um, and I think I would love to no, no, no, let's let's explore this just very quickly because yeah, I know my audience, and my audience is full of change makers. So the folks that are dialing in, listening into this, a lot of them are either decision makers or leaders, but also a lot of them are you know, minus ones, minus two who are looking to do drive change. So, what's some tips that you can share there? Yeah, you know, as a former CEO um and advisor to major CEOs now. Yeah, what what what are some of the um uh ways that folks that want to drive change can get started in driving that more horizontal sort of uh collaboration?

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah. So one of them is physical. If you are back uh physically and not all working from home, this is again may sound extreme, but um I I will say in the end who also does this because I don't want to uh put myself uh or be arrogant enough, if that's the right word, to even imagine that I'm on this person's level. But I have actually got uh rooms and put a single table, long tables in and then put multi-functions all on the same table. Yeah, so then the functions can't say people not even gonna say what that person is now there, they're sitting next to you from the other functions. You just have to turn to them and ask them. You can't use excuse that they're in another room or these so there's a physicality that can literally break down this sense that I'm with that team and you're with that team. So there's one. The second one is is it's you know, it does work as much as we might want uh question it, which is to have a set of KPIs that both teams, all teams, have to share, and it can only be hit if they collaborate on it and they are measured together, they look at it together, and if they don't collaborate, that KPI won't be hit. So let's have a think of what it could be. It could be um uh I don't know, on an IT project that the delivery is hit in a very short amount of time, in an unreasonable amount of time, for example, well, that can only be achieved if there's collaboration, and if they don't collaborate, there's no way that they can jointly deliver a project launch in a certain time. So I'm just gonna give you those two for the moment. One is the brutal numbers and KPI, and the other is the way we literally physically put people together.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Jeremy, I I couldn't agree more with those three quick fire examples. I if I look at the successes and the failures I've had in driving transformation, and I look at the successes and failures I've observed through brands I've worked with, um, I think what you just shared there is is a beautiful insight in terms of the importance of just getting in front of uh uh different departments, getting together into a room, a shared space. You know, this is where I'm a big fan of design thinking, you know, so really walking in your customer's shoes. And that often means not just the external customer, but also the internal customer, really thinking about, you know, if I'm going to interface with someone from IT, what is it that drives them? And then having shared measures of success, I think that is also really critical. So, you know, at Twilio, we use OKRs, you know, we have um our OKRs are very much structured in a way that everybody team understands their role and how they're laddering up to that. I think that's also critical. Um, and and again, I think just that it's not a once and done cycle, right? Um, Jeremy, this is something you've got to build a muscle into the business, but also it's test line adapt type of approach where those teams are working together and and you know, in identifying what's working and what's not working, and making the adjustments accordingly, correct?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yeah, I just thought two little things on that. You know, personalities get in the way of this whole thing. This is the trouble. Dealing again with weird humans, and you know, they will so two little thoughts on what you've just said there. The first is I love what you just said about defining who your internal customer is. You know, when I have asked that, you know, people really struggle to say, well, actually, yeah, you're my internal customer. And I think one thing I learned from one CEO in the UK was, you know, we get tired of repetition quicker than one should. I.e., if we say in every third meeting we're gonna ask who your customer is, that probably is the frequency to ensure that people don't then walk away from that thinking. You know, repetition, repetition. Who's your customer? I think would be a great one to continually ask so there's no ambiguity that we're each serving somebody internally, and let's not forget that.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

No, I couldn't agree more. And um, I guess another thing I'd like to explore here with you is um, especially when we think about uh the topic uh that's been you know top of mind, I guess, for the last two years for folks, and I think has a needs to be looked at horizontally across the organization is looking at these emerging technologies and capabilities that are coming online, you know, from an AI automation perspective and the role they're playing in both building and eroding uh trust. And I think this also links, there's a couple of ways we can go here, um, also linking back to the importance of data and the role of how data, you know, will ultimately power any AI transformation, but also this idea of security of data. And, you know, atolio, we think of it in the context of um, you know, having transparency, responsibility, and accountability. And I think I'd love to further explore that with you because I think that ties back to a point you were making earlier. Um, you know, so what are your thoughts about trust in the age of AI and the how do business leaders and ultimately agents of change need to approach that in order to make sure that they are make building and maintaining trust with their customers? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

You know, in 2018, I asked uh the BBC, the British Broadcasting uh Corporation, if I could make a uh program called Retail's AI Revolution. And I felt in 2018 that you know AI within retail was uh being used, it was transformational, and that people had really did not have an idea of what we were doing and what we could do. You know, and um, you know, I also looked a lot at regulation or the lack of it at that time. Remember, I'm gonna repeat 2018, and uh you know, no governments were doing anything with regulation. I then went to speak to the CEO of IBM and of um DeepMind, uh obviously Google brought them in 2014, and I was there at the time of the acquisition and spoke to them. And my question was, you know, uh surely AI is just gonna remove millions of jobs. And their response at the time was no, no, no, no, no. AI is gonna solve the world's problems. And you know, I got into some very heated debates, but that you know, we might solve the world's problems, but we're also gonna lose thousands of jobs. So but at the time, I thought I'd missed the AI boat. I just want to make that point. I thought, you know, the boat of Gaul, it was all, and little did I know that I, you know, I was so wrong, uh, and that so much has changed. So I just want to put that on the table. This has been close to my heart. Um, you know, you've had this uh previous uh webinars on AI, so you were going to be Uber Uber informed, but you know, clearly, and I'm a huge user of AI, that uh there's a lot of trust issues. You know, do we understand at all the algorithm? Do we have any idea how the algorithm is working to present us with the right answers or the best answers? Um do we understand how we're gonna get a huge amount of deep deep fakes? And you know, already I'm making deep fakes of myself. So uh technology we know is moving very quickly. I think there's gonna I I my point will be this I think we're gonna have huge trust issues internally and at the interface because of the speed with which we are all experiencing AI is moving, are already high dependence. I am I don't use Google anymore, I only use Chat GBT, and um actually just a quick little story, if I may, because uh two years ago I you I wanted to do a speech in Greece and show where Greece was number one because they invented democracy, so I thought I'd find other things. And Chat GBT told me that they were the number one in uh in shipping, which they are actually still 14% market share of all shipping, but that they were also number one in olive oil production. So I made little videos to show this to launch my speech and my slides, and the night before I thought I would check that everything was right, and Chat GBT wrote this. They said, Jeremy, I apologize. I've made a mistake, actually. Greece is not number one in olive oil, it's number two. So my speech had to start with me apologizing from Jack GBT that what I was about to show was wrong, but there was a learning. And how many of you use ChatGBT? So sorry, I've gone a little bit astray there. But um, yeah, I I this is a huge subject we can discuss, uh, and it's gonna be a big, big issue, as we all can see. I don't have to try and tell you that.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Yeah, no, I think in terms of uh uh there's obviously a lot of opportunity ahead with how AI can drive change, not just for the consumers, but also for employees. Well, I'm I'm in again, you reference you start to use it, and obviously you still have to go in with um uh your eyes wide open in terms of it, it's evolving and maturing still as a technology, but ultimately enable it it can enable, I feel, um employees to become significantly more productive. So therefore removing more if I think about the benefits I'm seeing there, it's removing a lot more of the um sort of transactional type work and freeing up more capacity for strategic sort of thinking for me in in that respect. But I think what's really important in terms of for based on the theme of today's session is that how do you use AI and how do you use it in a way that builds and maintains trust for employees and um and uh businesses. And I think one of the things I'm sort of sharing with, like if I use a retailer example, is again, if you're gonna use an AI um agent, you know, in a in a contact center, be really open with your customers uh about the fact that they're talking to an AI. Like, because obviously the voice um capabilities now are uh it's very difficult to tell the difference between a that you're talking to an AI or a human, right? So I think would you agree, Jeremy, it's really important for brands to be honest and open with when you're interfacing with an AI versus a human. Yeah. And and and when you do so, obviously creating pathways if you're dealing with an AI agent, but that you ultimately do want to talk to a human, having the ability to to do that. Do you do you do you see that as sort of the way forward for some of the brands to start exploring how they use these capabilities?

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Um I'm gonna say yes, a yes button. I.e. the yes but is that I think uh, you know, a few years ago when I was making that program, we were already using customer AI bots back in 2018. And you know, I think there was a greater frustration or desire to know who you were talking to. I think it feels like we are far more familiar that near enough all customer interface has got, and we'll start with an AI bot. So I think we're probably less needy to be reassured because we're assuming in multiple cases. I'd like to throw the question to us both in a slightly different way, which is at what time do we feel that a customer tou a human touch is necessary and important, and do we perceive that that might actually disappear completely? And so why am I raising this? So, you know, number one, AI is moving at such a pace that its ability to be completely simulating a customer seems like we're getting closer with robots and so on. But that do you know, can we imagine a time when actually they're so trustworthy and so effective we wouldn't need a human touch for any interaction but our weirdness? And and is that the place to go, or should we really always want that cut that human touch to be available at a cost, because it will cost, let's say in the next couple of years, because I don't think we can guess further than that. Um, and I my answer would be yes. My answer would be that we need to make the human touch available and not deep down in some multiple-led questionnaire or you know, uh button tester that you have to do, and that that does come at a cost, but from a trust point of view, since that's what we're talking about, it is necessary because if we don't, we'll lose customers who just say, you know, I've had enough of this, I can't deal. And I have this problem with Facebook. You know, I had a Facebook fraud, it was impossible to speak to a human to help me. Therefore, I've completely checked out of Facebook. I mean, I did that a while ago, but um, I'm just not interested in dealing with somebody who who holds me in so much disregard and disdain that they're not going to help solve my problem with a human.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Nah, I Jeremy, I think that's a really good example, and I couldn't agree more. And I think this is where, again, going back to the earlier example of working horizontally across the organization, really understanding a customer's journey and the employee's journey in supporting that, identifying those moments of truth where there is going to be uh an opportunity to bur further create and you know solidify trust is really important. And yeah, I mean, and again, I think in terms of those creating those pathways where I think, you know, if I can self-serve for more transactional simple stuff, I'm all in on that. But the moment I get to a point where fraud or it's a high consideration purchase or something where I do want to interact with a human, I think this is where businesses need to think about how they create those moments and those off-ramps to connect to a human, all of which is now possible from a technology perspective, which is but I think again, you've got to get back to the the process and people sort of organizational design element is a starting point, right? Yeah. And then you work back there. I I know we're coming up on time, so I've got one last question I'd love to throw to you before we maybe see if there's any questions from the audience, which I'm sure there is. I I know there is for sure uh a couple. Um, how do you uh actually when actually let me think? Actually, yeah, well, I'll go here with this question. Yeah, so if we think about the future of trust, you know, so let's let's cast an eye not too far in the future, because again, I think that's always tough um, you know, to do. But how do you see leadership's approach to trust changing as businesses continue on the path to become more global or regionalized, you know, um, and certainly more digital and more decentralized. So, yeah, what's one piece? So, yeah, how do you see uh first of all leadership's approach to trust changing in that context? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Um I think the following. Sorry, I'm wanting to give that a big thought because there's a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Um you know what I've observed is at the same time that we're becoming more atomized and individual, I've experienced concrete examples that shows that the human at a global level operates in a more similar way in a segment than one can believe. Let me just deconstruct that, i.e., that as individual as we are, I can have a problem in I had a problem in a country on a on a brand, and it was manifesting itself in every single country in the world to such an extent I thought people must be on social media talking, but they weren't. It's because we're also incredibly similar at the same time that we're incredibly individual. And why is that important? It's important because we can have a global customer and we can become very global. The danger, and therefore, from a leadership and a trust, is to uh as a leader know when to do something at the global level, but also know when to absolutely listen to a local difference, a local concern, a local nuance, and be flexible to adapt to that as a global company and not be dogmatic that this is the way we do it globally and that's you have to adapt. Sorry, you know, be quiet. That I think is a skill of leadership at the moment, um, and that requires judgment from the leader as to know when adapting to a local culture or team or need is not compromising, it is being smart to capture an incremental opportunity that a global standard approach is gonna miss out on.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

I I love that answer. Um, as someone who obviously looks after marketing in region, I'm very lucky and fortunate to work for a company that the leadership team understands that the importance of that and the value that that drives is significant to the end customer and to the employees serving. Yeah. Um, I couldn't agree more. And I think this is where, again, you know, I understand why that centralized control system sort of came about in times past because it was very hard to manage at scale globally, right? So having more sort of you know dick edicts coming down from global was needed in some respects because the you it was very difficult to to course correct, right? You the systems and processes weren't there. But through the digitization of the businesses and enterprise, right now, Jeremy, that you can build that structured flexibility, I guess is what I call it, yeah, into the operating system, right? You can back to your your earlier point, push more of the decision-making process out to the edge. But through smart use of people, process and technology, as you've eloquently talked about today, you can start to you know codify sort of some of those processes that need to ensure that we have some consistency in our operate, but still has that flexibility, your message there incorporated into it so that you can actually adapt to those sort of edge sort of cases of and and and trends that are evolving, right? So, yeah, I love that. Um, thank you for sharing that. Look, uh I think we're coming up on time. I've got a question here um from one of the the audience members. Let me just get back to the chat there. So um, yeah, one of the questions uh um is when mistakes happen, how do you suggest companies approach communications with customers to rebuild trust? I think that's a great question, actually. So when yeah, so when when when you fumble fumble the ball, how do you how do you course correct that, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah, you know, and the the key thing I'm gonna take out of the answer is the legal consequences and all the legal eagles saying, you know, do not uh admit liability. Yeah, and you know, no, but we have to put that in the mix that you know that voice is very, very strong. Um, I think the ability to have two actions at the same time. The first is to acknowledge there's been a fault, to say that that's been useful and we've learned from it and we're gonna course correct, and then mark it heavily too that if it's a group, let's say it's uh a population, go out with a statement to admit that something's been uh at fault. So, you know, acknowledge it, first of all, then say that you're gonna take course correcting, also explain potentially why it's happened because we often, and I wanted to say this actually earlier, you know, from a leadership point of view, we fail to tell our employees why. We tell them a what a lot, but it's the why that can build trust because then they can understand the motivation. So I think one can uh then go in and explain why. It's then how you also market heavily that the last memory isn't that you made a mistake and that you're apologizing, but then you're really saying all the wonderful things you're offering so that that is the lasting memory because we can have a danger, and we've seen this with brands who made a mistake, they've got the CEO's gonna apologize, he's then fired because he's uh or she is held accountable, and that does not end in a good place. So you need to put those two things together.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Wow, what a great way to to to bring this to a close. I think what you just said there is so important and really embodies um the theme of today. You know, how do you ensure that you maintain transparency, responsibility, and accountability there when deal when things do go wrong is a fantastic way to build trust, both within your customer base but also your employee base. So fantastic insights, Jeremy. I knew that we were going to be able to talk for an hour. Um for those that are listening, Jeremy's dialing in from London. Uh it's about 2 a.m. in the morning, and you wouldn't have even known that. Um uh so fantastic job. I really appreciate you sharing those insights. And again, um, you know, you the depth and experience that you have that you bring to the table is is is fantastic. And I think a lot of the folks that are dialed in today will better walk away with one or two insights that'll enable them to start thinking about how they can continue to build trust in their organizations. And I really want to thank everyone today for joining us um uh and joining this session.